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RE: I think PGX way over graded this!!

aarondawe — Fri, 18 Jul 2008 10:06:45 GMT

[quote][b]Speedy-D (7/17/2008)[/b]As for the "myth" that a comic is worth double if it's professionally graded, I offered that up as a super generalization. It seems to have irked you, so I'm sorry. But it is fair to say that a comic, if professionally graded, will almost always sell for more than that same comic in the same condition, if it were not professionally graded. How much more depends on the value/scarcity of the comic, and the grade it's given.

[/quote]

There needs to be a distinction between moderns and older books here.

I agree that modern CGC books in higher grades sell for more than a raw book in the same apparent grade, but if you take into account time and slabbing and shipping fees, the market value spread is not always that wide. I always think the buyers are paying for the slabbing service in this circumstance. Of course you have exceptions like BMXman's Watchmen set, so there are some crazy (I'm trying to be polite) people out there.

For older books, if you had an X-men # 1 9.4 slabbed and an 'apparent' 9.4 raw, the books should go for about the same money. But here is where you are paying for the certification. If you had doubts about the raw book (whether it was a true 9.4 or if it may have had restoration), you would likely pay less for it because of these concerns. So it may simply be a case of raw books not realizing their true value and not that graded books are inflating market values. Again, you willl find exceptions. There are crazy people out there.

RE: I think PGX way over graded this!!

bobafettesb — Fri, 18 Jul 2008 07:34:19 GMT

[quote][b]Speedy-D (7/18/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]KingOfRulers (7/18/2008)[/b][hr]Are graded books any less funbooks than raw ones? An X-men #1 raw or certified would give me the same enjoyment. They are the same book, only one has been professionally graded. If it is a given that a certain book gives you enjoyment, then why would it matter if it is graded or not? In either case you have the book and can do what you will with it. I get no added fun out of either of them. I have tried to read the X-men #1story numerous times by the way, and everytime it is just horrible, so I am not even looking to read it. :w00t:[/quote]

That's exactly what I'm saying. They're not that much more fun, or more satisfying, or whatever the right word is. And reading them isn't necessarily the fun of it either, strangely enough. There a bunch of comics I have that I really love, but I have no desire to actually read. Some I get just for the covers, and I've bought tons of Carmine Infantino comics just for the art, even though the stories are rubbish. Not Adam Strange though, those are fun to look at and to read too.

As for Cpt. Carrot #2, I got an ungraded restored 6.5 that looks pretty good, and it was a total steal. [b]Take [i]that[/i], CGC![/b][/quote]

LOL :w00t:
OMSMMAJ!!! (Oh My Sweet Mother Mary And Jesus)
I love this site. Some of the things that are said on here are just great.

RE: I think PGX way over graded this!!

Speedy-D — Fri, 18 Jul 2008 00:16:11 GMT

[quote][b]KingOfRulers (7/18/2008)[/b][hr]Are graded books any less funbooks than raw ones? An X-men #1 raw or certified would give me the same enjoyment. They are the same book, only one has been professionally graded. If it is a given that a certain book gives you enjoyment, then why would it matter if it is graded or not? In either case you have the book and can do what you will with it. I get no added fun out of either of them. I have tried to read the X-men #1story numerous times by the way, and everytime it is just horrible, so I am not even looking to read it. :w00t:[/quote]

That's exactly what I'm saying. They're not that much more fun, or more satisfying, or whatever the right word is. And reading them isn't necessarily the fun of it either, strangely enough. There a bunch of comics I have that I really love, but I have no desire to actually read. Some I get just for the covers, and I've bought tons of Carmine Infantino comics just for the art, even though the stories are rubbish. Not Adam Strange though, those are fun to look at and to read too.

As for Cpt. Carrot #2, I got an ungraded restored 6.5 that looks pretty good, and it was a total steal. Take [i]that[/i], CGC!

RE: I think PGX way over graded this!!

KingOfRulers — Fri, 18 Jul 2008 00:04:24 GMT

[quote][b]Speedy-D (7/17/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]KingOfRulers (7/17/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]Speedy-D (7/17/2008)[/b][hr]

For sellers I guess it'd retain value in that they're just going to resell the thing. But still, ultimately the plan is for the comic to wind up in a collector's hands who's going to hold onto it and consider it his/her possession. Again, the value diminishes quickly.

[/quote]

No, the value DOES NOT diminish. That's one of the points. Whether you choose to resell or not, the value is RETAINED because there is a universally accepted appraisel.[/quote]

You misunderstand me, my Lord. I'm not in this for the money. As far as I'm concerned, the value of my comics is other than dollars. That's what I was trying to say before. I'm not planning on reselling, and if I ever do, I have no doubt that most of my comics will be worth less than I paid, and I'm cool with that. Some of the comics that I value the most, ones that I keep in nice mylar and everything, ain't worth shite. The graded books that I've gotten, I've bought because I think they look cool, not because I think they're worth more money. They're not worth more money. I paid less than raw book value for every single one.

The only graded book that I feel otherwise about is my Flash 105. It was so expensive that the only way I could justify the purchase was by telling myself that I could sell it later on if I needed to. In this one case, I acted more like a potential seller. But other than this instance, I do not have a seller's mentality. I buy the comics for fun, and the added "fun" I get out of graded books is minimal.

As for the "myth" that a comic is worth double if it's professionally graded, I offered that up as a super generalization. It seems to have irked you, so I'm sorry. But it is fair to say that a comic, if professionally graded, will almost always sell for more than that same comic in the same condition, if it were not professionally graded. How much more depends on the value/scarcity of the comic, and the grade it's given.

Actually, now that I think about it, maybe that's not true. I'm sure I'm not the only person who's not willing to pay more for most graded comics, so maybe that really is a myth. Y'know, I see tons of graded comics on ebay, low grade common comics, and I always wonder who's wasting their money paying CGC's crazy prices for something like that. Maybe the people paying that price are the real suckers falling for the "myth."

A couple examples:
[url=http://cgi.ebay.com/FLASH-325-1983-HIGHEST-CGC-GRADED-9-4-INFANTINO_W0QQitemZ330253589750QQihZ014QQcategoryZ32755QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem]Flash 325 on ebay for $50[/url]
[url=http://cgi.ebay.com/FLASH-326-1983-HIGHEST-CGC-GRADED-9-4-INFANTINO-ART_W0QQitemZ330253591973QQihZ014QQcategoryZ32755QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem]Flash 326 on ebay for $50[/url][/quote]

To be fair, those Flash books have not sold for $50. I'm not sure what 9.2 is on them, but it is customary for 9.4s of any book to get about 2x what 9.2s go for.

Are graded books any less fun books than raw ones? An X-men #1 raw or certified would give me the same enjoyment. They are the same book, only one has been professionally graded. If it is a given that a certain book gives you enjoyment, then why would it matter if it is graded or not? In either case you have the book and can do what you will with it. I get no added fun out of either of them. I have tried to read the X-men #1 story numerous times by the way, and everytime it is just horrible, so I am not even looking to read it. :w00t:

RE: I think PGX way over graded this!!

Kree_boy411 — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 23:59:40 GMT

*shrugs*....im not high brow enuff for CGC......i dont drink enuff tea with my pinkie extended correctly :)

It all just depends on what you like...with all the CGC snobs out there...it just mean more of an open market for ungraded books.....ive been picking up deals left and right because there are those people out there that wont by anything but graded books...and thats fine.....more for me to snag at lower prices....

and jesus christ........just because i used the term snob with CGC (it was an attempt at humor)......does not mean thats what i think of all CGC collectors...just the ones that have to have every issue a 9.8....like the idiot that bought BMX's books.......

RE: I think PGX way over graded this!!

Sherlock_Holmes206 — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 23:38:05 GMT

RE: I think PGX way over graded this!!

Speedy-D — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 23:23:16 GMT

[quote][b]KingOfRulers (7/17/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]Speedy-D (7/17/2008)[/b][hr]

For sellers I guess it'd retain value in that they're just going to resell the thing. But still, ultimately the plan is for the comic to wind up in a collector's hands who's going to hold onto it and consider it his/her possession. Again, the value diminishes quickly.

[/quote]

No, the value DOES NOT diminish. That's one of the points. Whether you choose to resell or not, the value is RETAINED because there is a universally accepted appraisel.[/quote]

You misunderstand me, my Lord. I'm not in this for the money. As far as I'm concerned, the value of my comics is other than dollars. That's what I was trying to say before. I'm not planning on reselling, and if I ever do, I have no doubt that most of my comics will be worth less than I paid, and I'm cool with that. Some of the comics that I value the most, ones that I keep in nice mylar and everything, ain't worth shite. The graded books that I've gotten, I've bought because I think they look cool, not because I think they're worth more money. They're not worth more money. I paid less than raw book value for every single one.

The only graded book that I feel otherwise about is my Flash 105. It was so expensive that the only way I could justify the purchase was by telling myself that I could sell it later on if I needed to. In this one case, I acted more like a potential seller. But other than this instance, I do not have a seller's mentality. I buy the comics for fun, and the added "fun" I get out of graded books is minimal.

As for the "myth" that a comic is worth double if it's professionally graded, I offered that up as a super generalization. It seems to have irked you, so I'm sorry. But it is fair to say that a comic, if professionally graded, will almost always sell for more than that same comic in the same condition, if it were not professionally graded. How much more depends on the value/scarcity of the comic, and the grade it's given.

Actually, now that I think about it, maybe that's not true. I'm sure I'm not the only person who's not willing to pay more for most graded comics, so maybe that really is a myth. Y'know, I see tons of graded comics on ebay, low grade common comics, and I always wonder who's wasting their money paying CGC's crazy prices for something like that. Maybe the people paying that price are the real suckers falling for the "myth."

A couple examples:
[url=http://cgi.ebay.com/FLASH-325-1983-HIGHEST-CGC-GRADED-9-4-INFANTINO_W0QQitemZ330253589750QQihZ014QQcategoryZ32755QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem]Flash 325 on ebay for $50[/url]
[url=http://cgi.ebay.com/FLASH-326-1983-HIGHEST-CGC-GRADED-9-4-INFANTINO-ART_W0QQitemZ330253591973QQihZ014QQcategoryZ32755QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem]Flash 326 on ebay for $50[/url]

RE: I think PGX way over graded this!!

aarondawe — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 22:03:21 GMT

[quote][b]KingOfRulers (7/17/2008)[/b][hr]

I'd be willing to bet that EVERY collector on the boards who spends significant dollar amounts on Silver Age or Golden Age books, has several restored books in their collection and don't even know it.[/quote]

I agree. I've gotten books from reputable dealers that have had minor work undisclosed (that actually wouldn't impact the grade category they were in at least) and that may be because they can't go over every single book with a magnifying glass. The work I'm talking of here is stuff like restapled and/or married pages on books less than $35 in their grade. I doubt they would be as lax with higer grade, higher valued books, but the possibility is always there that they might miss something as some work is not easy to detect.

RE: I think PGX way over graded this!!

KingOfRulers — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 21:15:23 GMT

[quote][b]Speedy-D (7/17/2008)[/b][hr]

For sellers I guess it'd retain value in that they're just going to resell the thing. But still, ultimately the plan is for the comic to wind up in a collector's hands who's going to hold onto it and consider it his/her possession. Again, the value diminishes quickly.

[/quote]

No, the value DOES NOT diminish. That's one of the points. Whether you choose to resell or not, the value is RETAINED because there is a universally accepted appraisel.

RE: I think PGX way over graded this!!

KingOfRulers — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 21:12:48 GMT

There seems to be a myth that a graded book automatically gets double or triple what a similar raw book would get, which is just that...a myth. I have bought plenty of slabbed books for under Overstreet and under GPA.

And if you're so against having a book in a big bad plastic case, you are open to use your own free will to deslab the book. Nobody said you can't do that.

RE: I think PGX way over graded this!!

Speedy-D — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 20:05:04 GMT

I like graded books too, I think they're neat, but paying much extra for them doesn't make sense to me. The only real value I can see in them is an assurance of the grade. But for most purchases (online aside), I can see the comic's condition for myself. Once the purchase has been made, the assurance of the grade ceases to have such high importance; I've already made my decision. At that point all that's left in terms of value in a graded comic is the nice display and any silly status that might exist in being able to say "Well, [i][b][u]CGC[/u][/b][/i] says it's a 7.5. So there!" That's not worth much to me, at least.

For sellers I guess it'd retain value in that they're just going to resell the thing. But still, ultimately the plan is for the comic to wind up in a collector's hands who's going to hold onto it and consider it his/her possession. Again, the value diminishes quickly.

Paying double the value of a comic because it's in a CGC case? I really don't get it. It's fetish fetish fetish (I like that word and I plan to use it two more times this week!).

RE: I think PGX way over graded this!!

Speedy-D — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 19:55:48 GMT

[quote][b]bobafettesb (7/17/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]Speedy-D (7/17/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]bobafettesb (7/16/2008)[/b][hr]
It may be true that having thousand of 9.8 graded books in the market might lower the price for certain books. Then what would be the point of having those books slabbed anyway? You wouldn't be able to read them. Isn't that what most of us are in this for anyway? I for one love comics because of the stories. I don't just want a bunch of books that are essentially worthless behind a plastic case and all I can do is look at the front and back covers. :w00t:

I don't really have the "CGC" bug either. I only buy CGC 9.8s or above for books that I either have the TPB or single issues for. And I normally limit my purchases to mini-series and titles that didn't have a very long run.[/quote]

There is no point in having them graded. It's a fetish, and an expensive one.

As for ruining the industry, I'd say first of all that the industry ain't ruined. But if it were to suffer any serious damage, it'd be more due to the high price of comics, and the fact that I pretty much never see any kids in the comic store. [b]Comics are like cigarettes: the industry should be trying to get new generations hooked young![/b][/quote]
I can just picture a guy resembling "Comic Book Guy" from The Simpsons rolling around in a box van with no windows. Waiting for the little kiddies to get out of school.

[i][b]*In creepy stalker-guy voice*[/b][/i]
"Hey little kid. What to try some comics?" ;)[/quote]

Wow this is spooky. That's exactly how they got me hooked on cigarettes!

RE: I think PGX way over graded this!!

bobafettesb — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 18:13:26 GMT

[quote][b]Speedy-D (7/17/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]bobafettesb (7/16/2008)[/b][hr]
It may be true that having thousand of 9.8 graded books in the market might lower the price for certain books. Then what would be the point of having those books slabbed anyway? You wouldn't be able to read them. Isn't that what most of us are in this for anyway? I for one love comics because of the stories. I don't just want a bunch of books that are essentially worthless behind a plastic case and all I can do is look at the front and back covers. :w00t:

I don't really have the "CGC" bug either. I only buy CGC 9.8s or above for books that I either have the TPB or single issues for. And I normally limit my purchases to mini-series and titles that didn't have a very long run.[/quote]

There is no point in having them graded. It's a fetish, and an expensive one.

As for ruining the industry, I'd say first of all that the industry ain't ruined. But if it were to suffer any serious damage, it'd be more due to the high price of comics, and the fact that I pretty much never see any kids in the comic store. [b]Comics are like cigarettes: the industry should be trying to get new generations hooked young![/b][/quote]
I can just picture a guy resembling "Comic Book Guy" from The Simpsons rolling around in a box van with no windows. Waiting for the little kiddies to get out of school.

[i][b]*In creepy stalker-guy voice*[/b][/i]
"Hey little kid. What to try some comics?" ;)

RE: I think PGX way over graded this!!

Shadow — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 10:19:36 GMT

It seems to me there are enough copies of MOST comics out there to satisfy both the collectors of slabbed and the collectors of not slabbed...;)

I haven't been to a major convention yet that didn't have a dozen copies of Amazing Fantasy #15 in every condition you can imagine...slabbed and unslabbed...:hmmmm:

So we can argue the wisdom and virtues of professional grading until we're blue in the face...and you're not going to change some peoples minds either way...

If you want to hold the book and turn the pages and (gasp) :w00t: read it...then slabbed seems a little ridiculous...

If you want to be assured of the grade...and the absence of any restoration...then you'd be foolish to buy anything unslabbed...

So it all comes down to a level of comfort...like everything else in life...and what you're willing to pay to have that comfort...:cool:

RE: I think PGX way over graded this!!

Speedy-D — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 09:25:51 GMT

[quote][b]bobafettesb (7/16/2008)[/b][hr]
It may be true that having thousand of 9.8 graded books in the market might lower the price for certain books. Then what would be the point of having those books slabbed anyway? You wouldn't be able to read them. Isn't that what most of us are in this for anyway? I for one love comics because of the stories. I don't just want a bunch of books that are essentially worthless behind a plastic case and all I can do is look at the front and back covers. :w00t:

I don't really have the "CGC" bug either. I only buy CGC 9.8s or above for books that I either have the TPB or single issues for. And I normally limit my purchases to mini-series and titles that didn't have a very long run.[/quote]

There is no point in having them graded. It's a fetish, and an expensive one.

As for ruining the industry, I'd say first of all that the industry ain't ruined. But if it were to suffer any serious damage, it'd be more due to the high price of comics, and the fact that I pretty much never see any kids in the comic store. Comics are like cigarettes: the industry should be trying to get new generations hooked young!

RE: I think PGX way over graded this!!

Speedy-D — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 09:16:05 GMT

[quote][b]Magic Dan (7/16/2008)[/b][hr]I'm in...5.5 and that's without the benefit of a rear cover pic.

Sorry if you paid more than $40 though.

:ermm:[/quote]

5.5 is exactly what they said. I'm shocked, I really think that's over grading. But whatever. And thanks for the thought, I paid less than $40.

RE: I think PGX way over graded this!!

batfan — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 01:17:45 GMT

i also agree. i really dont care. i read my comics also.

RE: I think PGX way over graded this!!

SuperPro — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 22:14:12 GMT

I have to agree with KoR...I personally like CGC books. I have a hard time buying ungraded books. Why? well I am no expert grader or resto checker. B Since i am not if i decide to sell there is no arguing..I do not agree with CGCs grading standards (whatever they r). I do like the older system better. It is not natural to look for fingerprints on a comic.

RE: I think PGX way over graded this!!

KingOfRulers — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 22:06:54 GMT

[quote]
Come on [b]KingOfRulers[/b]!

You can't tell me that you wouldn't be more willing to pay $40K (if you could) for a non-graded copy of [b]Detective Comics #27[/b] that you yourself says is in VG condition than you would to pay upwards of up to 10x grade for a CGC graded copy of the same book in the same grade. And all because some decided that it was in VG condition, printed out a nice blue label, and put it in a hard plastic case?
[/quote]

A Detective #27 in VG, whether raw or slabbed doesn't go for 10x guide.

Anyway, the point is that the condition of the book was appraised by unbiased, capable graders and restoration detectors. Let's say you had 50k to go blow on a Tec' #27 in San Diego next week. If you want to walk in to a show ready to write a big fat 50k check to some guy for a Tec' #27 who says it is a VG, where does that leave you? Do you think you are skilled enough, and with an unbiased mentality towards the book to make it smart for you to sign a check for a book that might be worth only 15k. Do you have the knowledge in restoration detection to guarantee that the book is untouched.

CGC's word is not inherently valuable. At one point it wasn't valuable, but over time their word and skill has proven valuable.

[quote]
[i]Your entire arguement is senseless. It sounds more like petty displeasure over what you can and can't afford.You're relating a CGC 9.8 X-men #1 to a raw copy. Well, what the hell grade is the raw copy?!? A 2.0? 6.0? 9.2? You are trying to relate a 9.8 copy to some open ended copy of some mythical grade which apparantly also costsa few pennieswhich in turn somehow means that graded books ruined the industry.[/i] [b]-- This whole paragraph just hurt my head.[/b]

I was relating two exact copies of [b]Uncanny X-Men #1[/b] in 9.8 grade. Ok......let's slow it down a bit. Let's say that you buy a non-graded copy of said book that you know is a 9.8. Let's also say that you paid $10K for this book. You then take it to CGC yourself (because we all know how you love to do that). You stay there and witness them check it in, inventory it, rub their white-gloved little fingers all over it..........whatever it is they do over there. By the time it's all over, you leave the place with a freshly-slabbed copy of your book with a label that reads [b]"Uncanny X-Men #1 CGC 9.8"[/b]. What makes that book worth $190K more than the book that you started off with? Is it just because it's in a hard plastic case? If so.............that's one expensive piece of plastic.

[/quote]

The X-men #1 is worth whatever someone will pay for it. My grade of a 9.8 is not trusted to the degree that CGCs is. For something to have value, it is has to be accepted. What good is an X-men #1 9.8 if the prospective buyers do not accept my grade?

Trust and credibility are valuable. You can't touch it, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't carry value. There are appraisel companies all over the world who appraise coins, cards, fine art, etc...and comics. [b]As the dollar amount grows, the risk grows. The pool of buyers grows as the trust and credibility in the appraisel of the product grows.[/b] Nobody is going to drop $200k on an X-men #1 if they don't have any trust in the product, which is why raw books often don't fetch their true value. Certified books don't necessarily fetch premiums--raw books just don't always fetch their true value.

You think experts that appraise fine art have worthless opinions? lol You seem to completely devalue the opinion of someone experienced and knowledgable in the field.

RE: I think PGX way over graded this!!

Magic Dan — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 17:50:33 GMT

I'm in...5.5 and that's without the benefit of a rear cover pic.

Sorry if you paid more than $40 though.

:ermm:

RE: I think PGX way over graded this!!

bobafettesb — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 17:23:55 GMT

[quote][b]KingOfRulers (7/16/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]bobafettesb (7/16/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]KingOfRulers (7/15/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]bobafettesb (7/15/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]KingOfRulers (7/15/2008)[/b][hr]

[b]So because YOU can't afford the books you want, that means that graded books ruined the industry? This isn't a big commune. Sellers want to maximize revenue.[/b][/quote]

Woah! Woah! Woah!;)
Who said anything about me not being able to afford higher-grade issues?
What about people that are newer to the industry that would like to purchase some nicer looking copies besides the ones that grandma had lining her cabinet drawers?[/quote]

I didn't say anything about not being able to afford higher grade issues. I said that just because certain books are going for more than you want to pay does not mean graded books ruined the industry. Your inability to purchase the books you want at the price you want says nothing to how graded books have or have not helped the industry.[/quote]

Was I mistaken, or is that not what you said in the bolded post?

But just to prove a point, let's see a show of hands from all the people that can afford aCGC 9.8 copy of [b]Uncanny X-Men #1[/b] for around $200,000. Now let's see a show of hands for all of the people that can afford a non-CGC 9.8 copy of the same book.

And what about all of these subcription-service CGC 9.8 graded books that are coming out? Don't you think that that's going to have an effect on the market? If they're pumping these things out in such high grade as to be able to fulfill a subscription service. It's going to have an adverse effect on the market. There's just going to be thousands of 9.8 graded copies of certain books just floating around.[/quote]

How does this relate at all to high grade books? "So because YOU can't afford the books you want, that means that graded books ruined the industry? This isn't a big commune. Sellers want to maximize revenue"

A Detective #27 inVG condition will run you $40,000 or more. Can you afford that? It's not high grade.

Your entire arguement is senseless. It sounds more like petty displeasure over what you can and can't afford.You're relating a CGC 9.8 X-men #1 to a raw copy. Well, what the hell grade is the raw copy?!? A 2.0? 6.0? 9.2? You are trying to relate a 9.8 copy to some open ended copy of some mythical grade which apparantly also costsa few pennieswhich in turn somehow means that graded books ruined the industry.

Graded books did not ruin the industry. Tell me how graded books have somehow destroyed the industry? Deception? Is CGC extorting dealers? Bribes? Drug mules? If CGC was extorting dealers around the world, that would be a valid arguement to ruining an industry. But you have none of these lol Your arguement on how they ruined the industry is based youon having been priced out on the books you want lol Are personal finances valid reasons to why graded books ruined the industry? [img]http://boards.collectors-society.com/images/graemlins/default/confused-smiley-013.gif[/img][/quote]
Come on [b]KingOfRulers[/b]!

You can't tell me that you wouldn't be more willing to pay $40K (if you could) for a non-graded copy of [b]Detective Comics #27[/b] that you yourself says is in VG condition than you would to pay upwards of up to 10x grade for a CGC graded copy of the same book in the same grade. And all because some decided that it was in VG condition, printed out a nice blue label, and put it in a hard plastic case?

[i]Your entire arguement is senseless. It sounds more like petty displeasure over what you can and can't afford.You're relating a CGC 9.8 X-men #1 to a raw copy. Well, what the hell grade is the raw copy?!? A 2.0? 6.0? 9.2? You are trying to relate a 9.8 copy to some open ended copy of some mythical grade which apparantly also costsa few pennieswhich in turn somehow means that graded books ruined the industry.[/i] [b]-- This whole paragraph just hurt my head.[/b]

I was relating two exact copies of [b]Uncanny X-Men #1[/b] in 9.8 grade. Ok......let's slow it down a bit. Let's say that you buy a non-graded copy of said book that you know is a 9.8. Let's also say that you paid $10K for this book. You then take it to CGC yourself (because we all know how you love to do that). You stay there and witness them check it in, inventory it, rub their white-gloved little fingers all over it..........whatever it is they do over there. By the time it's all over, you leave the place with a freshly-slabbed copy of your book with a label that reads [b]"Uncanny X-Men #1 CGC 9.8"[/b]. What makes that book worth $190K more than the book that you started off with? Is it just because it's in a hard plastic case? If so.............that's one expensive piece of plastic.

RE: I think PGX way over graded this!!

bobafettesb — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 17:09:05 GMT

[quote][b]Speedy-D (7/16/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]bobafettesb (7/16/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]KingOfRulers (7/15/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]bobafettesb (7/15/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]KingOfRulers (7/15/2008)[/b][hr]

[b]So because YOU can't afford the books you want, that means that graded books ruined the industry? This isn't a big commune. Sellers want to maximize revenue.[/b][/quote]

Woah! Woah! Woah!;)
Who said anything about me not being able to afford higher-grade issues?
What about people that are newer to the industry that would like to purchase some nicer looking copies besides the ones that grandma had lining her cabinet drawers?[/quote]

I didn't say anything about not being able to afford higher grade issues. I said that just because certain books are going for more than you want to pay does not mean graded books ruined the industry. Your inability to purchase the books you want at the price you want says nothing to how graded books have or have not helped the industry.[/quote]

Was I mistaken, or is that not what you said in the bolded post?

But just to prove a point, let's see a show of hands from all the people that can afford aCGC 9.8 copy of [b]Uncanny X-Men #1[/b] for around $200,000. Now let's see a show of hands for all of the people that can afford a non-CGC 9.8 copy of the same book.

And what about all of these subcription-service CGC 9.8 graded books that are coming out? Don't you think that that's going to have an effect on the market? If they're pumping these things out in such high grade as to be able to fulfill a subscription service. It's going to have an adverse effect on the market. There's just going to be thousands of 9.8 graded copies of certain books just floating around.[/quote]

Thousands of 9.8 graded books will probably lower the price, making them easier to afford. Also, I'd be willing to argue that, since CGC has come into its own, and people look more to graded books when they're in the market for high grade copies, it could even lower the value of non-graded books as those buyers pass them by.

But I for one don't really get the drooling love for graded comics. I think they're neat and I get them when I can for the same price as non-graded, but (and no offense here, more power to you sir) it seems nutsy-doodles to me to pay $5,000 for 12 comics from 1986 or whenever in such ultra high grades. It's just not me.[/quote]

It may be true that having thousand of 9.8 graded books in the market might lower the price for certain books. Then what would be the point of having those books slabbed anyway? You wouldn't be able to read them. Isn't that what most of us are in this for anyway? I for one love comics because of the stories. I don't just want a bunch of books that are essentially worthless behind a plastic case and all I can do is look at the front and back covers. :w00t:

I don't really have the "CGC" bug either. I only buy CGC 9.8s or above for books that I either have the TPB or single issues for. And I normally limit my purchases to mini-series and titles that didn't have a very long run.

RE: I think PGX way over graded this!!

Sherlock_Holmes206 — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 16:07:06 GMT

[quote][b]bobafettesb (7/16/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]KingOfRulers (7/15/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]bobafettesb (7/15/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]KingOfRulers (7/15/2008)[/b][hr]

[b]So because YOU can't afford the books you want, that means that graded books ruined the industry? This isn't a big commune. Sellers want to maximize revenue.[/b][/quote]

Woah! Woah! Woah!;)
Who said anything about me not being able to afford higher-grade issues?
What about people that are newer to the industry that would like to purchase some nicer looking copies besides the ones that grandma had lining her cabinet drawers?[/quote]

I didn't say anything about not being able to afford higher grade issues. I said that just because certain books are going for more than you want to pay does not mean graded books ruined the industry. Your inability to purchase the books you want at the price you want says nothing to how graded books have or have not helped the industry.[/quote]

Was I mistaken, or is that not what you said in the bolded post?

But just to prove a point, let's see a show of hands from all the people that can afford aCGC 9.8 copy of [b]Uncanny X-Men #1[/b] for around $200,000. Now let's see a show of hands for all of the people that can afford a non-CGC 9.8 copy of the same book.

And what about all of these subcription-service CGC 9.8 graded books that are coming out? Don't you think that that's going to have an effect on the market? If they're pumping these things out in such high grade as to be able to fulfill a subscription service. It's going to have an adverse effect on the market. There's just going to be thousands of 9.8 graded copies of certain books just floating around.[/quote]

The people buying the subscription service 9.8's are morons.

RE: I think PGX way over graded this!!

kamboy — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:30:58 GMT

i can't believe some people ..grading has it's plus and minus

i'll admit i started dealing again to make $$$ but deep down i really do love comics

whatever happens in the market that you see might not really be so..eg -watchmen 9.8

for $$$$ how many more people will pay that ? i know for i fact i get watchmen sets for less than $50 just about anywhere.. just because the cgc said they were 9.8 it's now worth $5k

or was it somebody who thought it was a good deal? as long as you got the $$$ no big deal

right? if that person really knew what he/she was doing ...then i don't think that would have happened....i guess that's the plus...

the minus is leaving grading to the "professionals" ... wow! me and a couple of friends /associates thought about that 15yrs ago...didn't fly you wanna know why..

everyone is biased these are people gradeing these comics..it's still subjective..

good day 9.8 bad day 8.5 ... seems if you want to maximize your price your at their mercy

....kind of a monopoly.... pt barum- there's a sucker born every minute- i guess it's changed to second...

RE: I think PGX way over graded this!!

KingOfRulers — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:26:18 GMT

[quote][b]bobafettesb (7/16/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]KingOfRulers (7/15/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]bobafettesb (7/15/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]KingOfRulers (7/15/2008)[/b][hr]

[b]So because YOU can't afford the books you want, that means that graded books ruined the industry? This isn't a big commune. Sellers want to maximize revenue.[/b][/quote]

Woah! Woah! Woah!;)
Who said anything about me not being able to afford higher-grade issues?
What about people that are newer to the industry that would like to purchase some nicer looking copies besides the ones that grandma had lining her cabinet drawers?[/quote]

I didn't say anything about not being able to afford higher grade issues. I said that just because certain books are going for more than you want to pay does not mean graded books ruined the industry. Your inability to purchase the books you want at the price you want says nothing to how graded books have or have not helped the industry.[/quote]

Was I mistaken, or is that not what you said in the bolded post?

But just to prove a point, let's see a show of hands from all the people that can afford a CGC 9.8 copy of [b]Uncanny X-Men #1[/b] for around $200,000. Now let's see a show of hands for all of the people that can afford a non-CGC 9.8 copy of the same book.

And what about all of these subcription-service CGC 9.8 graded books that are coming out? Don't you think that that's going to have an effect on the market? If they're pumping these things out in such high grade as to be able to fulfill a subscription service. It's going to have an adverse effect on the market. There's just going to be thousands of 9.8 graded copies of certain books just floating around.[/quote]

How does this relate at all to high grade books? "So because YOU can't afford the books you want, that means that graded books ruined the industry? This isn't a big commune. Sellers want to maximize revenue"

A Detective #27 in VG condition will run you $40,000 or more. Can you afford that? It's not high grade.

Your entire arguement is senseless. It sounds more like petty displeasure over what you can and can't afford. You're relating a CGC 9.8 X-men #1 to a raw copy. Well, what the hell grade is the raw copy?!? A 2.0? 6.0? 9.2? You are trying to relate a 9.8 copy to some open ended copy of some mythical grade which apparantly also costs a few pennies which in turn somehow means that graded books ruined the industry.

Graded books did not ruin the industry. Tell me how graded books have somehow destroyed the industry? Deception? Is CGC extorting dealers? Bribes? Drug mules? If CGC was extorting dealers around the world, that would be a valid arguement to ruining an industry. But you have none of these lol Your arguement on how they ruined the industry is based you on having been priced out on the books you want lol Are personal finances valid reasons to why graded books ruined the industry? [img]http://boards.collectors-society.com/images/graemlins/default/confused-smiley-013.gif[/img]

RE: I think PGX way over graded this!!

Speedy-D — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 08:02:44 GMT

[quote][b]bobafettesb (7/16/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]KingOfRulers (7/15/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]bobafettesb (7/15/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]KingOfRulers (7/15/2008)[/b][hr]

[b]So because YOU can't afford the books you want, that means that graded books ruined the industry? This isn't a big commune. Sellers want to maximize revenue.[/b][/quote]

Woah! Woah! Woah!;)
Who said anything about me not being able to afford higher-grade issues?
What about people that are newer to the industry that would like to purchase some nicer looking copies besides the ones that grandma had lining her cabinet drawers?[/quote]

I didn't say anything about not being able to afford higher grade issues. I said that just because certain books are going for more than you want to pay does not mean graded books ruined the industry. Your inability to purchase the books you want at the price you want says nothing to how graded books have or have not helped the industry.[/quote]

Was I mistaken, or is that not what you said in the bolded post?

But just to prove a point, let's see a show of hands from all the people that can afford aCGC 9.8 copy of [b]Uncanny X-Men #1[/b] for around $200,000. Now let's see a show of hands for all of the people that can afford a non-CGC 9.8 copy of the same book.

And what about all of these subcription-service CGC 9.8 graded books that are coming out? Don't you think that that's going to have an effect on the market? If they're pumping these things out in such high grade as to be able to fulfill a subscription service. It's going to have an adverse effect on the market. There's just going to be thousands of 9.8 graded copies of certain books just floating around.[/quote]

Thousands of 9.8 graded books will probably lower the price, making them easier to afford. Also, I'd be willing to argue that, since CGC has come into its own, and people look more to graded books when they're in the market for high grade copies, it could even lower the value of non-graded books as those buyers pass them by.

But I for one don't really get the drooling love for graded comics. I think they're neat and I get them when I can for the same price as non-graded, but (and no offense here, more power to you sir) it seems nutsy-doodles to me to pay $5,000 for 12 comics from 1986 or whenever in such ultra high grades. It's just not me.

RE: I think PGX way over graded this!!

bobafettesb — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 07:08:58 GMT

[quote][b]KingOfRulers (7/15/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]bobafettesb (7/15/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]KingOfRulers (7/15/2008)[/b][hr]

[b]So because YOU can't afford the books you want, that means that graded books ruined the industry? This isn't a big commune. Sellers want to maximize revenue.[/b][/quote]

Was I mistaken, or is that not what you said in the bolded post?

RE: I think PGX way over graded this!!

bobafettesb — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 07:00:08 GMT

RE: I think PGX way over graded this!!

KingOfRulers — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 21:19:50 GMT

[quote][b]bobafettesb (7/15/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]KingOfRulers (7/15/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]bobafettesb (7/15/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]Remote_kill (7/15/2008)[/b][hr]graded books ruined the industry.[/quote]

I agree with you on that. It has put so many key issues and high-grade copies of certain runs out of reach for many collectors in the business. It used to be so easy to find high-grade copies of [b]The Amazing Spider-Man[/b] and [b]The Uncanny X-Men[/b] at affordable prices. Now one needs to be willing to drop hundreds of $$$s on a single issue.

And on the topic..........I wouldn't give that copy of [b]Flash #130[/b] any higher than a 5.0. Did PGX grade it at a 10?

[b]IT'S A 10! A FUC*ING 10!!!![/b][/quote]

So because YOU can't afford the books you want, that means that graded books ruined the industry? This isn't a big commune. Sellers want to maximize revenue.[/quote]

Woah! Woah! Woah!;)
Who said anything about me not being able to afford higher-grade issues?
What about people that are newer to the industry that would like to purchase some nicer looking copies besides the ones that grandma had lining her cabinet drawers?[/quote]

RE: I think PGX way over graded this!!

bobafettesb — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 17:14:39 GMT

[quote][b]KingOfRulers (7/15/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]bobafettesb (7/15/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]Remote_kill (7/15/2008)[/b][hr]graded books ruined the industry.[/quote]

I agree with you on that. It has put so many key issues and high-grade copies of certain runs out of reach for many collectors in the business. It used to be so easy to find high-grade copies of [b]The Amazing Spider-Man[/b] and [b]The Uncanny X-Men[/b] at affordable prices. Now one needs to be willing to drop hundreds of $$$s on a single issue.

And on the topic..........I wouldn't give that copy of [b]Flash #130[/b] any higher than a 5.0. Did PGX grade it at a 10?

[b]IT'S A 10! A FUC*ING 10!!!![/b][/quote]

So because YOU can't afford the books you want, that means that graded books ruined the industry? This isn't a big commune. Sellers want to maximize revenue.[/quote]

Woah! Woah! Woah!;)
Who said anything about me not being able to afford higher-grade issues?
What about people that are newer to the industry that would like to purchase some nicer looking copies besides the ones that grandma had lining her cabinet drawers?

RE: I think PGX way over graded this!!

Speedy-D — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:33:39 GMT

Wow, I'm surprised that some of the grades have been as high as 5.0. I would call it a 4.0 or maybe 4.5. PGX called it a 5.5, and I don't think it's anywhere near Fine-. In hand, the creases by the spine are quite ugly.

But, given the feedback from y'all (thanks!), I guess I might have over-reacted some. I still think I'm going to steer clear of PGX comics unless I can get a good look at the actual condition beforehand. At this point I don't have faith in getting an honest grade from them (or him or whatever).

I also got a copy of Flash 155 that PGX is calling a 6.0. While it does look a bit better than the Flash 130, I still think it's more like a 5.0. Whatever, live and learn.

Thanks again folks.

RE: I think PGX way over graded this!!

aarondawe — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:02:25 GMT

I'd say about 6.0 from the picture. A scan would better (and the back cover) to do a better estimate.

RE: I think PGX way over graded this!!

KingOfRulers — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:52:18 GMT

[quote][b]bobafettesb (7/15/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]Remote_kill (7/15/2008)[/b][hr]graded books ruined the industry.[/quote]

I agree with you on that. It has put so many key issues and high-grade copies of certain runs out of reach for many collectors in the business. It used to be so easy to find high-grade copies of [b]The Amazing Spider-Man[/b] and [b]The Uncanny X-Men[/b] at affordable prices. Now one needs to be willing to drop hundreds of $$$s on a single issue.

And on the topic..........I wouldn't give that copy of [b]Flash #130[/b] any higher than a 5.0. Did PGX grade it at a 10?

[b]IT'S A 10! A FUC*ING 10!!!![/b][/quote]

So because YOU can't afford the books you want, that means that graded books ruined the industry? This isn't a big commune. Sellers want to maximize revenue.

RE: I think PGX way over graded this!!

bobafettesb — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 07:15:36 GMT

[quote][b]Remote_kill (7/15/2008)[/b][hr]graded books ruined the industry.[/quote]

I agree with you on that. It has put so many key issues and high-grade copies of certain runs out of reach for many collectors in the business. It used to be so easy to find high-grade copies of [b]The Amazing Spider-Man[/b] and [b]The Uncanny X-Men[/b] at affordable prices. Now one needs to be willing to drop hundreds of $$$s on a single issue.

And on the topic..........I wouldn't give that copy of [b]Flash #130[/b] any higher than a 5.0. Did PGX grade it at a 10?

[b]IT'S A 10! A 10!!!![/b]

RE: I think PGX way over graded this!!

Kree_boy411 — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 02:01:10 GMT

[quote][b]Boboset (7/15/2008)[/b][hr]I bet PGX gave it a 7.5

They REALLY overgrade it could even be a 8.0 by their standards.

PGX has no idea what they are doing, it's just one dude in his basement.PGX isnot a legitamate grading company, it is an amatuer operation that garners no respect in the buisness. You might as well takethe comicout the case unless you want to re sell it inflating the grade by representing the PGX grade.[/quote]

you mean "his" standards dont you...lol....

RE: I think PGX way over graded this!!

Boboset — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 01:47:06 GMT

I bet PGX gave it a 7.5

They REALLY overgrade it could even be a 8.0 by their standards.

PGX has no idea what they are doing, it's just one dude in his basement. PGX is not a legitamate grading company, it is an amatuer operation that garners no respect in the buisness. You might as well take the comic out the case unless you want to re sell it inflating the grade by representing the PGX grade.

RE: I think PGX way over graded this!!

Kree_boy411 — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 01:26:52 GMT

Need a pic of the back....
With whats shown....i wouldnt give it higher than a 4.5 in my collection....what did they grade it...7.0 :D

RE: I think PGX way over graded this!!

Remote_kill — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 00:18:10 GMT

graded books ruined the industry.

I think PGX way over graded this!!

Speedy-D — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 23:55:55 GMT

Take a look at this Flash comic I got in the mail the other day off an ebay win. I think it was seriously over graded by PGX, but I'm not the best grader in the world. If you wouldn't mind, I'd love some grades on this. I've blurred out the PGX grade to avoid any undue influencing.

O, and sorry about the photos. It's late and there's no natural light. I have two pictures here, hopefully you can get an idea of the thing from them. Most of the trouble is creasing around the spine. There's a little crease on the upper left corner as well, but it's very small. The colors in the second photo are pretty much correct (well, there's not really a huge white spot in the middle of it!!!).

Poor photo #1:
[img]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3208/2669523211_6d178f7168_o.jpg[/img]

Poor photo #2:
[img]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3261/2669523149_854a56e464_o.jpg[/img]

I'll see if I can't get a better picture of it tomorrow.